Dr. Jeff Masters' WunderBlog

The Manufactured Doubt industry and the hacked email controversy
Posted by: Dr. Jeff Masters, 3:07 PM GMT on November 25, 2009 +32
In 1954, the tobacco industry realized it had a serious problem. Thirteen scientific studies had been published over the preceding five years linking smoking to lung cancer. With the public growing increasingly alarmed about the health effects of smoking, the tobacco industry had to move quickly to protect profits and stem the tide of increasingly worrisome scientific news. Big Tobacco turned to one the world's five largest public relations firms, Hill and Knowlton, to help out. Hill and Knowlton designed a brilliant Public Relations (PR) campaign to convince the public that smoking is not dangerous. They encouraged the tobacco industry to set up their own research organization, the Council for Tobacco Research (CTR), which would produce science favorable to the industry, emphasize doubt in all the science linking smoking to lung cancer, and question all independent research unfavorable to the tobacco industry. The CTR did a masterful job at this for decades, significantly delaying and reducing regulation of tobacco products. George Washington University epidemiologist David Michaels, who is President Obama's nominee to head the Occupational Health and Safety Administration (OSHA), wrote a meticulously researched 2008 book called, Doubt is Their Product: How Industry's Assault on Science Threatens Your Health. In the book, he wrote: "the industry understood that the public is in no position to distinguish good science from bad. Create doubt, uncertainty, and confusion. Throw mud at the anti-smoking research under the assumption that some of it is bound to stick. And buy time, lots of it, in the bargain". The title of Michaels' book comes from a 1969 memo from a tobacco company executive: "Doubt is our product since it is the best means of competing with the 'body of fact' that exists in the minds of the general public. It is also the means of establishing a controversy". Hill and Knowlton, on behalf of the tobacco industry, had founded the "Manufactured Doubt" industry.

The Manufactured Doubt industry grows up
As the success of Hill and Knowlton's brilliant Manufactured Doubt campaign became apparent, other industries manufacturing dangerous products hired the firm to design similar PR campaigns. In 1967, Hill and Knowlton helped asbestos industry giant Johns-Manville set up the Asbestos Information Association (AIA). The official-sounding AIA produced "sound science" that questioned the link between asbestos and lung diseases (asbestos currently kills 90,000 people per year, according to the World Health Organization). Manufacturers of lead, vinyl chloride, beryllium, and dioxin products also hired Hill and Knowlton to devise product defense strategies to combat the numerous scientific studies showing that their products were harmful to human health.

By the 1980s, the Manufactured Doubt industry gradually began to be dominated by more specialized "product defense" firms and free enterprise "think tanks". Michaels wrote in Doubt is Their Product about the specialized "product defense" firms: "Having cut their teeth manufacturing uncertainty for Big Tobacco, scientists at ChemRisk, the Weinberg Group, Exponent, Inc., and other consulting firms now battle the regulatory agencies on behalf of the manufacturers of benzene, beryllium, chromium, MTBE, perchlorates, phthalates, and virtually every other toxic chemical in the news today....Public health interests are beside the point. This is science for hire, period, and it is extremely lucrative".

Joining the specialized "product defense" firms were the so-called "think tanks". These front groups received funding from manufacturers of dangerous products and produced "sound science" in support of their funders' products, in the name of free enterprise and free markets. Think tanks such as the George C. Marshall Institute, Competitive Enterprise Institute, Heartland Institute, and Dr. Fred Singer's SEPP (Science and Environmental Policy Project) have all been active for decades in the Manufactured Doubt business, generating misleading science and false controversy to protect the profits of their clients who manufacture dangerous products.

The ozone hole battle
In 1975, the chlorofluorocarbon (CFC) industry realized it had a serious problem. The previous year, Sherry Rowland and Mario Molina, chemists at the University of California, Irvine, had published a scientific paper warning that human-generated CFCs could cause serious harm to Earth's protective ozone layer. They warned that the loss of ozone would significantly increase the amount of skin-damaging ultraviolet UV-B light reaching the surface, greatly increasing skin cancer and cataracts. The loss of stratospheric ozone could also significantly cool the stratosphere, potentially causing destructive climate change. Although no stratospheric ozone loss had been observed yet, CFCs should be banned, they said. The CFC industry hired Hill and Knowlton to fight back. As is essential in any Manufactured Doubt campaign, Hill and Knowlton found a respected scientist to lead the effort--noted British scientist Richard Scorer, a former editor of the International Journal of Air Pollution and author of several books on pollution. In 1975, Scorer went on a month-long PR tour, blasting Molina and Rowland, calling them "doomsayers", and remarking, "The only thing that has been accumulated so far is a number of theories." To complement Scorer's efforts, Hill and Knowlton unleashed their standard package of tricks learned from decades of serving the tobacco industry:

- Launch a public relations campaign disputing the evidence.

- Predict dire economic consequences, and ignore the cost benefits.

- Use non-peer reviewed scientific publications or industry-funded scientists who don't publish original peer-reviewed scientific work to support your point of view.

- Trumpet discredited scientific studies and myths supporting your point of view as scientific fact.

- Point to the substantial scientific uncertainty, and the certainty of economic loss if immediate action is taken.

- Use data from a local area to support your views, and ignore the global evidence.

- Disparage scientists, saying they are playing up uncertain predictions of doom in order to get research funding.

- Disparage environmentalists, claiming they are hyping environmental problems in order to further their ideological goals.

- Complain that it is unfair to require regulatory action in the U.S., as it would put the nation at an economic disadvantage compared to the rest of the world.

- Claim that more research is needed before action should be taken.

- Argue that it is less expensive to live with the effects.

The campaign worked, and CFC regulations were delayed many years, as Hill and Knowlton boasted in internal documents. The PR firm also took credit for keeping public opinion against buying CFC aerosols to a minimum, and helping change the editorial positions of many newspapers.

In the end, Hill and Knowlton's PR campaign casting doubt on the science of ozone depletion by CFCs turned out to have no merit. Molina and Rowland were awarded the Nobel Prize in 1995. The citation from the Nobel committee credited them with helping to deliver the Earth from a potential environmental disaster.

The battle over global warming
In 1988, the fossil fuel industry realized it had a serious problem. The summer of 1988 had shattered century-old records for heat and drought in the U.S., and NASA's Dr. James Hansen, one of the foremost climate scientists in the world, testified before Congress that human-caused global warming was partially to blame. A swelling number of scientific studies were warning of the threat posed by human-cause climate change, and that consumption of fossil fuels needed to slow down. Naturally, the fossil fuel industry fought back. They launched a massive PR campaign that continues to this day, led by the same think tanks that worked to discredit the ozone depletion theory. The George C. Marshall Institute, the Competitive Enterprise Institute, Heartland Institute, and Dr. Fred Singer's SEPP (Science and Environmental Policy Project) have all been key players in both fights, and there are numerous other think tanks involved. Many of the same experts who had worked hard to discredit the science of the well-established link between cigarette smoke and cancer, the danger the CFCs posed to the ozone layer, and the dangers to health posed by a whole host of toxic chemicals, were now hard at work to discredit the peer-reviewed science supporting human-caused climate change.

As is the case with any Manufactured Doubt campaign, a respected scientist was needed to lead the battle. One such scientist was Dr. Frederick Seitz, a physicist who in the 1960s chaired the organization many feel to be the most prestigious science organization in the world--the National Academy of Sciences. Seitz took a position as a paid consultant for R.J. Reynolds tobacco company beginning in 1978, so was well-versed in the art of Manufactured Doubt. According to the excellent new book, Climate Cover-up, written by desmogblog.com co-founder James Hoggan and Richard Littlemore, over a 10-year period Seitz was responsible for handing out $45 million in tobacco company money to researchers who overwhelmingly failed to link tobacco to anything the least bit negative. Seitz received over $900,000 in compensation for his efforts. He later became a founder of the George C. Marshall Institute, and used his old National Academy of Sciences affiliation to lend credibility to his attacks on global warming science until his death in 2008 at the age of ninety-six. It was Seitz who launched the "Oregon Petition", which contains the signatures of more than 34,000 scientists saying global warming is probably natural and not a crisis. The petition is a regular feature of the Manufactured Doubt campaign against human-caused global warming. The petition lists the "Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine" as its parent organization. According to Climate Cover-up, the Institute is a farm shed situated a couple of miles outside of Cave Junction, OR (population 17,000). The Institute lists seven faculty members, two of whom are dead, and has no ongoing research and no students. It publishes creationist-friendly homeschooler curriculums books on surviving nuclear war. The petition was sent to scientists and was accompanied by a 12-page review printed in exactly the same style used for the prestigious journal, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. A letter from Seitz, who is prominently identified as a former National Academy of Sciences president, accompanied the petition and review. Naturally, many recipients took this to be an official National Academy of Sciences communication, and signed the petition as a result. The National Academy issued a statement in April 2008, clarifying that it had not issued the petition, and that its position on global warming was the opposite. The petition contains no contact information for the signers, making it impossible to verify. In its August 2006 issue, Scientific American presented its attempt to verify the petition. They found that the scientists were almost all people with undergraduate degrees, with no record of research and no expertise in climatology. Scientific American contacted a random sample of 26 of the 1,400 signatories claiming to have a Ph.D. in a climate related science. Eleven said they agreed with the petition, six said they would not sign the petition today, three did not remember the petition, one had died, and five did not respond.

I could say much more about the Manufactured Doubt campaign being waged against the science of climate change and global warming, but it would fill an entire book. In fact, it has, and I recommend reading Climate Cover-up to learn more. The main author, James Hoggan, owns a Canadian public relations firm, and is intimately familiar with how public relations campaigns work. Suffice to say, the Manufactured Doubt campaign against global warming--funded by the richest corporations in world history--is probably the most extensive and expensive such effort ever. We don't really know how much money the fossil fuel industry has pumped into its Manufactured Doubt campaign, since they don't have to tell us. The website exxonsecrets.org estimates that ExxonMobil alone spent $20 million between 1998 - 2007 on the effort. An analysis done by Desmogblog's Kevin Grandia done in January 2009 found that skeptical global warming content on the web had doubled over the past year. Someone is paying for all that content.

Lobbyists, not skeptical scientists
The history of the Manufactured Doubt industry provides clear lessons in evaluating the validity of their attacks on the published peer-reviewed climate change science. One should trust that the think tanks and allied "skeptic" bloggers such as Steve McIntyre of Climate Audit and Anthony Watts of Watts Up With That will give information designed to protect the profits of the fossil fuel industry. Yes, there are respected scientists with impressive credentials that these think tanks use to voice their views, but these scientists have given up their objectivity and are now working as lobbyists. I don't like to call them skeptics, because all good scientists should be skeptics. Rather, the think tanks scientists are contrarians, bent on discrediting an accepted body of published scientific research for the benefit of the richest and most powerful corporations in history. Virtually none of the "sound science" they are pushing would ever get published in a serious peer-reviewed scientific journal, and indeed the contrarians are not scientific researchers. They are lobbyists. Many of them seem to believe their tactics are justified, since they are fighting a righteous war against eco-freaks determined to trash the economy.

I will give a small amount of credit to some of their work, however. I have at times picked up some useful information from the contrarians, and have used it to temper my blogs to make them more balanced. For example, I no longer rely just on the National Climatic Data Center for my monthly climate summaries, but instead look at data from NASA and the UK HADCRU source as well. When the Hurricane Season of 2005 brought unfounded claims that global warming was to blame for Hurricane Katrina, and a rather flawed paper by researchers at Georgia Tech showing a large increase in global Category 4 and 5 hurricanes, I found myself agreeing with the contrarians' analysis of the matter, and my blogs at the time reflected this.

The contrarians and the hacked CRU emails
A hacker broke into an email server at the Climate Research Unit of the UK's University of East Anglia last week and posted ten years worth of private email exchanges between leading scientists who've published research linking humans to climate change. Naturally, the contrarians have seized upon this golden opportunity, and are working hard to discredit several of these scientists. You'll hear claims by some contrarians that the emails discovered invalidate the whole theory of human-caused global warming. Well, all I can say is, consider the source. We can trust the contrarians to say whatever is in the best interests of the fossil fuel industry. What I see when I read the various stolen emails and explanations posted at Realclimate.org is scientists acting as scientists--pursuing the truth. I can see no clear evidence that calls into question the scientific validity of the research done by the scientists victimized by the stolen emails. There is no sign of a conspiracy to alter data to fit a pre-conceived ideological view. Rather, I see dedicated scientists attempting to make the truth known in face of what is probably the world's most pervasive and best-funded disinformation campaign against science in history. Even if every bit of mud slung at these scientists were true, the body of scientific work supporting the theory of human-caused climate change--which spans hundreds of thousands of scientific papers written by tens of thousands of scientists in dozens of different scientific disciplines--is too vast to be budged by the flaws in the works of the three or four scientists being subject to the fiercest attacks.

Exaggerated claims by environmentalists
Climate change contrarians regularly complain about false and misleading claims made by ideologically-driven environmental groups regarding climate change, and the heavy lobbying these groups do to influence public opinion. Such efforts confuse the real science and make climate change seem more dangerous than it really is, the contrarians argue. To some extent, these concerns are valid. In particular, environmentalists are too quick to blame any perceived increase in hurricane activity on climate change, when such a link has yet to be proven. While Al Gore's movie mostly had good science, I thought he botched the treatment of hurricanes as well, and the movie looked too much like a campaign ad. In general, environmental groups present better science than the think tanks do, but you're still better off getting your climate information directly from the scientists doing the research, via the latest Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) report. Another good source is Bob Henson's Rough Guide to Climate Change, aimed at people with high-school level science backgrounds.

Let's look at the amount of money being spent on lobbying efforts by the fossil fuel industry compared to environmental groups to see their relative influence. According to Center for Public Integrity, there are currently 2,663 climate change lobbyists working on Capitol Hill. That's five lobbyists for every member of Congress. Climate lobbyists working for major industries outnumber those working for environmental, health, and alternative energy groups by more than seven to one. For the second quarter of 2009, here is a list compiled by the Center for Public Integrity of all the oil, gas, and coal mining groups that spent more than $100,000 on lobbying (this includes all lobbying, not just climate change lobbying):

Chevron $6,485,000
Exxon Mobil $4,657,000
BP America $4,270,000
ConocoPhillips $3,300,000
American Petroleum Institute $2,120,000
Marathon Oil Corporation $2,110,000
Peabody Investments Corp $1,110,000
Bituminous Coal Operators Association $980,000
Shell Oil Company $950,000
Arch Coal, Inc $940,000
Williams Companies $920,000
Flint Hills Resources $820,000
Occidental Petroleum Corporation $794,000
National Mining Association $770,000
American Coalition for Clean Coal Electricity $714,000
Devon Energy $695,000
Sunoco $585,000
Independent Petroleum Association of America $434,000
Murphy Oil USA, Inc $430,000
Peabody Energy $420,000
Rio Tinto Services, Inc $394,000
America's Natural Gas Alliance $300,000
Interstate Natural Gas Association of America $290,000
El Paso Corporation $261,000
Spectra Energy $279,000
National Propane Gas Association $242,000
National Petrochemical & Refiners Association $240,000
Nexen, Inc $230,000
Denbury Resources $200,000
Nisource, Inc $180,000
Petroleum Marketers Association of America $170,000
Valero Energy Corporation $160,000
Bituminous Coal Operators Association $131,000
Natural Gas Supply Association $114,000
Tesoro Companies $119,000

Here are the environmental groups that spent more than $100,000:

Environmental Defense Action Fund $937,500
Nature Conservancy $650,000
Natural Resources Defense Council $277,000
Earthjustice Legal Defense Fund $243,000
National Parks and Conservation Association $175,000
Sierra Club $120,000
Defenders of Wildlife $120,000
Environmental Defense Fund $100,000

If you add it all up, the fossil fuel industry outspent the environmental groups by $36.8 million to $2.6 million in the second quarter, a factor of 14 to 1. To be fair, not all of that lobbying is climate change lobbying, but that affects both sets of numbers. The numbers don't even include lobbying money from other industries lobbying against climate change, such as the auto industry, U.S. Chamber of Commerce, etc.

Corporate profits vs. corporate social responsibility
I'm sure I've left the impression that I disapprove of what the Manufactured Doubt industry is doing. On the contrary, I believe that for the most part, the corporations involved have little choice under the law but to protect their profits by pursuing Manufactured Doubt campaigns, as long as they are legal. The law in all 50 U.S. states has a provision similar to Maine's section 716, "The directors and officers of a corporation shall exercise their powers and discharge their duties with a view to the interest of the corporation and of the shareholders". There is no clause at the end that adds, "...but not at the expense of the environment, human rights, the public safety, the communities in which the corporation operates, or the dignity of employees". The law makes a company's board of directors legally liable for "breach of fiduciary responsibility" if they knowingly manage a company in a way that reduces profits. Shareholders can and have sued companies for being overly socially responsible, and not paying enough attention to the bottom line. We can reward corporations that are managed in a socially responsible way with our business and give them incentives to act thusly, but there are limits to how far Corporate Socially Responsibility (CSR) can go. For example, car manufacturer Henry Ford was successfully sued by stockholders in 1919 for raising the minimum wage of his workers to $5 per day. The courts declared that, while Ford's humanitarian sentiments about his employees were nice, his business existed to make profits for its stockholders.

So, what is needed is a fundamental change to the laws regarding the purpose of a corporation, or new regulations forcing corporations to limit Manufactured Doubt campaigns. Legislation has been introduced in Minnesota to create a new section of law for an alternative kind of corporation, the SR (Socially Responsible) corporation, but it would be a long uphill battle to get such legislation passed in all 50 states. Increased regulation limiting Manufactured Doubt campaigns is possible to do for drugs and hazardous chemicals--Doubt is Their Product has some excellent suggestions on that, with the first principle being, "use the best science available; do not demand certainty where it does not and cannot exist". However, I think such legislation would be difficult to implement for environmental crises such as global warming. In the end, we're stuck with the current system, forced to make critical decisions affecting all of humanity in the face of the Frankenstein monster our corporate system of law has created--the most vigorous and well-funded disinformation campaign against science ever conducted.

Have a great Thanksgiving, everyone, and I'll be back Monday--the last day of hurricane season--with a review of the hurricane season of 2009.

Jeff Masters
Categories: Climate Change
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1651. pearlandaggie 2:16 AM GMT on November 30, 2009    
1649. yeah, i figured they didn't probably jump but were more likely pushed over the edge like the cape buffalo in Africa crossing a river filled with crocodiles! :)
Member Since: September 14, 2007 Posts: 3 Comments: 3963
1653. AstroHurricane001 2:17 AM GMT on November 30, 2009    
Wow, this must be the longest-running debate on something where the debate is really over. I feel like the two sides are sending each other propaganda (such as The Great Global Warming Swindle, which is propaganda).
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1654. Patrap 2:17 AM GMT on November 30, 2009    
Those Tromso,Norway Lemmings aint so Bad with a Lil Garlic and Butter..,twist o Lemon too.
Member Since: July 3, 2005 Posts: 372 Comments: 111607
1655. Patrap 2:18 AM GMT on November 30, 2009    
I was so Bored with No Sunday Saints game..and the Blog Convulsions..I jumped at the chance to do a Brake Job today.
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1656. Grothar 2:20 AM GMT on November 30, 2009    
Quoting pearlandaggie:
1649. yeah, i figured they didn't probably jump but were more likely pushed over the edge like the cape buffalo in Africa crossing a river filled with crocodiles! :)


I believe you are referring to the wildebeest, not the cape buffalo. Sorry to correct you. Although Cape Buffalo have been known to have been killed by crocs.
Member Since: July 17, 2009 Posts: 57 Comments: 19550
1657. aquak9 2:20 AM GMT on November 30, 2009    
sometimes this blog needs a brake job...

ya'll behave! have a good quiet evening, at least till tuesday night arrives.
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1658. pearlandaggie 2:21 AM GMT on November 30, 2009    
1652. actually, no i'm not saying that at all. i was speaking on a more fundamental level about all scientific fields and that the need to maintain integrity should always, always, always trump the psychological need to be "right".

however, the degree of influence is one point on which you and i would probably disagree...
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1659. pearlandaggie 2:22 AM GMT on November 30, 2009    
1656. you're probably right...i couldn't remember if they were the wildebeests or the cape buffaloes. it's been a while since i've seen that show :)

it's possible my mind was fantasizing about all those curly-horned creatures jumping to their death. the short, straight, pointy horns are FAR less fun to watch! :)
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1660. Catfish57 2:23 AM GMT on November 30, 2009    
Back 30 years ago when I was doing research, I am not a phD, (MS) but worked for phD's in Env. research. In those days, the term Scientific Method was sacred. Integrity of data was imperative, and anyone throwing out data to support/disprove a hypothesis was seen as an ethical pariah.

Have things changed that much where CRU climatologist can convienently discard data that they choose? Apparently so.
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1661. AstroHurricane001 2:24 AM GMT on November 30, 2009    
Quoting pearlandaggie:
1645. all science should be skeptical. the null hypothesis should be maintained until proven false. model output is not enough to falsify the null hypothesis.

So you're saying that we should ignore global warming until we are absolutely sure the models are correct and that global warming is caused by human activity, by which time we'd all be dead? That's not how science should work because no progress would be made. This is incredibly hard to understand, kind of like saying "I am not a false prophet" (double oxymoron?). (if this idea drives you even a little crazy, try not to take it seriously)

AND PLEASE START DISCUSSING TYPHOON NIDA!
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1662. Grothar 2:24 AM GMT on November 30, 2009    
Quoting Patrap:
Those Tromso,Norway Lemmings aint so Bad with a Lil Garlic and Butter..,twist o Lemon too.


Pat, how do you know about Tromsø. Most people can't even find America on a map. Bet you even know where Trondheim and Finnmark are? You never cease to amaze me. Hey, we kept them as pets. Nice little creatures.
Member Since: July 17, 2009 Posts: 57 Comments: 19550
1663. gordydunnot 2:25 AM GMT on November 30, 2009    
Pat I must congratulate you on the saints. Revenge is best served cold. I am not going to say anymore lest I jink you.I think we got a shot next year maybe Wes Walker will come back or we can buy a receiver. But go anonymous saint fans, it can't get much sweeter. My only concern is arn't those Manning boys a problem.
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1664. Grothar 2:27 AM GMT on November 30, 2009    
Quoting pearlandaggie:
1656. you're probably right...i couldn't remember if they were the wildebeests or the cape buffaloes. it's been a while since i've seen that show :)

it's possible my mind was fantasizing about all those curly-horned creatures jumping to their death. the short, straight, pointy horns are FAR less fun to watch! :)


Personally, I like the ones with straight, pointy horns. You guys take care. I got to go.
Member Since: July 17, 2009 Posts: 57 Comments: 19550
1665. pearlandaggie 2:28 AM GMT on November 30, 2009    
1661. actually, i'm saying that the whole AGW hypothesis and the notion it's occurring could be the result of bad or manipulated data. if you've ever seen condition and siting surveys of the USHCN network and compared them to the published guidelines, you would have to conclude that over and over again a warm bias has been introduced into the data by poor siting, increasing urbanization of the temperature record, immense data station dropout and the failure to adequately account for the urban heat island effect. and that doesn't even address a potential willful manipulation of data to effect a desired outcome, land usage changes, the actual physics behind CO2-induced warming or other natural influences that could easily account for temperature trends thusfar.
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1666. AstroHurricane001 2:28 AM GMT on November 30, 2009    
Quoting Catfish57:
Back 30 years ago when I was doing research, I am not a phD, (MS) but worked for phD's in Env. research. In those days, the term Scientific Method was sacred. Integrity of data was imperative, and anyone throwing out data to support/disprove a hypothesis was seen as an ethical pariah.

Have things changed that much where CRU climatologist can convienently discard data that they choose? Apparently so.

Yes, because so many scientific paradigms have changed since 30 years ago, and it was around this time when human greenhouse gas emissions overtook natural cycles as the main cause of climate change.
Member Since: August 30, 2008 Posts: 8 Comments: 2811
1667. Marlinzfan 2:28 AM GMT on November 30, 2009    
Is there gonna be any weather discussion on this blog tonight ? What about this big storm brewing in the Gulf ? Is it a threat to Ft. Meyers, FL ?
1668. Patrap 2:30 AM GMT on November 30, 2009    
Pat, how do you know about Tromso. Most people can't even find America on a map. Bet you even know where Trondheim and Finnmark are? You never cease to amaze me. Hey, we kept them as pets. Nice little creatures.


Well..as a USMC NATO member..during Teamwork 84 I spent 6 weeks in Tromso in a TAC deployment.Tactical Air Control..or Controllers with Radar in the Field.

Mack-O beer was my Beverage of Choice there in 84..Mack-O is the Most Northern Brewery in the Northern Hemisphere.. I even Stole..er..acquired their Outlet Logo on the Door of the Outlet Bar across the street and Brought that Back Home to Cherry Point.

But dont tell anyone..LOL
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1670. pearlandaggie 2:32 AM GMT on November 30, 2009    
well, have a good evening, everyone. i have to go feed the baby :)
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1671. winter123 2:33 AM GMT on November 30, 2009    

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1673. Patrap 2:35 AM GMT on November 30, 2009    
Your's Truly enjoying a Nice Cold Mack-O in Norway..Spring 84.

Patrap In Norway

Typical NOLA Jarhead,Isotoner Gloves,Painters Hat,Bandana,and frozen Pizza under my rack..LOL

Also got the Knife and some reindeer pelts from some Laplanders passing thru with a Herd..also a Nice bit of reindeer meat as well.

That Permafrost is deep too..at least 12 Inches when I was there.
Member Since: July 3, 2005 Posts: 372 Comments: 111607
1674. winter123 2:35 AM GMT on November 30, 2009    
Quoting P451:
Good Evening, here is the final word of X'Ida. Please visit my blog for the full tracking of Ida.

======================================

November 29, 2009 - November 27, 2009

While any remnant of Ida was likely absorbed on the 26th I continued to follow the frontal system that interacted with it. That front eventually dissipated early this morning just short of the Canary Islands off the coast of Morocco.

Here are loops of the past 3 days, most recent loop posted first.










This concludes a nearly month long tracking of Ida.

======================================


You spoke too soon! :) Remnants now headed toward black sea. (may take a bit to load loop)
Link
Member Since: July 29, 2006 Posts: 28 Comments: 1700
1676. gordydunnot 2:37 AM GMT on November 30, 2009    
Pearlandagge you make a good point I for one believe in gw but its cause maybe a little more of a mystery as I am from S. Fl. and over the years as we have built further west it has become much drier and much hotter. I think the world has a population problem that for what ever reason is not even being discussed. Political football, I imagine but in my heart and mind I believe this is a man made problem and nature or man will find a solution.
Member Since: August 18, 2008 Posts: 0 Comments: 3044
1678. AwakeInMaryland 2:39 AM GMT on November 30, 2009    
Everyone thanks for the Carol Burnett show tidbits, who knew it would be such a pleasant source of diversion from some unpleasant incessant arguing lately!

I see the blog is busy with weather again, which is when it's at its best. Patrap, sorry to hear about your daughter, the stress of college is enough by itself. Maybe the Universe's way of telling her to slow down? Hope something good comes out of it.

I've sure enjoyed Pottery's Diary & the music links and all while the Admins were on Thanksgiving break. I haven't seen Flood or his Mrs. on lately, hope they're still doing okay after his surgery.

I'm going up to watch a movie.
Member Since: August 19, 2008 Posts: 32 Comments: 1918
1679. AussieStorm 2:41 AM GMT on November 30, 2009    
Quoting 1590. Eagle101:



Sydney sweats in hottest November ever

SYDNEY has had its hottest November on record with maximum temperatures 2.5 degrees above average, the Weather Channel says.

Only two cold fronts have crossed southeastern Australia in the entire month, the channel's meteorologist Tom Saunders says.

Sydney also recorded its hottest spring since 1988, he said.

And it's been the city's driest November since 1962, with only 13.4mm of rain compared to the November average of 83.5mm.


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1680. Patrap 2:42 AM GMT on November 30, 2009    
The GFSx by UNYSIS

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1681. AwakeInMaryland 2:42 AM GMT on November 30, 2009    
whoops, accidental double-post, deleted by poster.
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1682. Grothar 2:42 AM GMT on November 30, 2009    
Quoting Patrap:
Pat, how do you know about Tromso. Most people can't even find America on a map. Bet you even know where Trondheim and Finnmark are? You never cease to amaze me. Hey, we kept them as pets. Nice little creatures.


Well..as a USMC NATO member..during Teamwork 84 I spent 6 weeks in Tromso in a TAC deployment.Tactical Air Control..or Controllers with Radar in the Field.

Mack-O beer was my Beverage of Choice there in 84..Mack-O is the Most Northern Brewery in the Northern Hemisphere.. I even Stole..er..acquired their Outlet Logo on the Door of the Outlet Bar across the street and Brought that Back Home to Cherry Point.

But dont tell anyone..LOL


You know the Outlet Bar? Smack-O Mack-O. Now tell me you have been to Bodø? Perhaps we are in the same field?? Or were in the same field?
You know they have closed Olavsvern?
Member Since: July 17, 2009 Posts: 57 Comments: 19550
1684. Patrap 2:46 AM GMT on November 30, 2009    
Quoting Grothar:


You know the Outlet Bar? Smack-O Mack-O. Now tell me you have been to Bod? Perhaps we are in the same field?? Or were in the same field?
You know they have closed Olavsvern?


I was a US Marine from 80-86 Air Wing..We did yearly Cold Weather training, Norway was every other year..

Shame to hear that..Those Norwegian were good to me.
I was amazed to see a 3 foot wide High School Shower Door made of Stainless too at the school where we showered. The Norwegians took and take Nuclear War seriously.

The West Germans werent allowed in the BArs or Outlets though. Bad feelings were still High there in 84.
Member Since: July 3, 2005 Posts: 372 Comments: 111607
1685. AstroHurricane001 2:48 AM GMT on November 30, 2009    
Wow, seriously? A suggestion to start discussing the Gulf system gets flagged? That's what we were SUPPOSED to be discussing two hours ago! (it ties in with global warming see page 32)
Member Since: August 30, 2008 Posts: 8 Comments: 2811
1686. gordydunnot 2:49 AM GMT on November 30, 2009    
The only thing I can say, is it looks like long range winter forecast are worse than the tropical forecast.
Member Since: August 18, 2008 Posts: 0 Comments: 3044
1687. Grothar 2:50 AM GMT on November 30, 2009    
Quoting Patrap:
Your's Truly enjoying a Nice Cold Mack-O in Norway..Spring 84.

Patrap In Norway

Typical NOLA Jarhead,Isotoner Gloves,Painters Hat,Bandana,and frozen Pizza under my rack..LOL

Also got the Knife and some reindeer pelts from some Laplanders passing thru with a Herd..also a Nice bit of reindeer meat as well.

That Permafrost is deep too..at least 12 Inches when I was there.


....I pulled my harpoon out of my dirty red bandana.....

What a picture!!!. I am sure you have seen mine on the blog. I believe you may have commented on them. We may have possibly crossed paths, at least on the Permafrost!
Member Since: July 17, 2009 Posts: 57 Comments: 19550
1689. Patrap 2:52 AM GMT on November 30, 2009    
Quoting Grothar:


....I pulled my harpoon out of my dirty red bandana.....

What a picture!!!. I am sure you have seen mine on the blog. I believe you may have commented on them. We may have possibly crossed paths, at least on the Permafrost!


Absolutely..we may have shared some dirt together for sure..or Permafrost. They broke Sledge hammers for two days setting up Tents the Advance Party did in that permafrost..till I suggested they use a Terex forklift to Tamp those engineers stakes in..LOL

Was a hoot
Member Since: July 3, 2005 Posts: 372 Comments: 111607
1690. Patrap 2:53 AM GMT on November 30, 2009    
Wow JF..I never would have seen that er..one, return...till he was quoted.

LOL

The ignore feature is the best main Blog tool,hands down.
Member Since: July 3, 2005 Posts: 372 Comments: 111607
1691. Grothar 2:55 AM GMT on November 30, 2009    
Quoting Patrap:


I was a US Marine from 80-86 Air Wing..We did yearly Cold Weather training, Norway was every other year..

Shame to hear that..Those Norwegian were good to me.
I was amazed to see a 3 foot wide High School Shower Door made of Stainless too at the school where we showered. The Norwegians took and take Nuclear War seriously.

The West Germans werent allowed in the BArs or Outlets though. Bad feelings were still High there in 84.


Gee, I wonder why?? lol I would often have to speak German when I was there. Many of the American Special Forces spoke Norwegian and quite well.
Member Since: July 17, 2009 Posts: 57 Comments: 19550
1693. calusakat 2:57 AM GMT on November 30, 2009    
I love the Ignore button.

When people use it, the rest of us can make comments which are read by the world in general, without them, the ignorers chiming in so much.

It is kind of funny actually, being able to see them and comment on them and what they write without them ever knowing what is really going on. I love it!! It truly does make for a more quiet blog.

It also works to keep the bandwidth down as well. Not so much senseless back and forth.

Me...I'll keep my view settings set to SHOW ALL, so that I get see all the chatter, not just what a few want to let me see. I think they call it censorship, and censorship is bad, that is for sure.

Member Since: October 10, 2008 Posts: 0 Comments: 716
1694. Patrap 2:58 AM GMT on November 30, 2009    
Seeing the Northern Lights was a awesome experience as well.

And being only a couple of Hundred Miles from the Russians..we used to Listen to the propaganda on the Radio,right next to the Fiord there. Was truly a awesome time in my Life.


I took Plenty of pics there with a Canon AE-1. I will do a Winter Blog on that Teamwork 84 Exercise soon and post some with it.
Member Since: July 3, 2005 Posts: 372 Comments: 111607
1695. AwakeInMaryland 2:59 AM GMT on November 30, 2009    
1688. JFlorida -- please, for the love of all that is holy, stop quoting him...
bad karma
bad juju
bad English
bad feelings

"Courtesy is the grease of the wheels of society." Robert Heinlein, I think...will check on google. Gotta' go. :)
Member Since: August 19, 2008 Posts: 32 Comments: 1918
1696. Grothar 2:59 AM GMT on November 30, 2009    
Quoting Patrap:
Wow JF..I never would have seen that er..one, return...till he was quoted.

LOL

The ignore feature is the best main Blog tool,hands down.


I wonder how many of these people are on ignore and don't know it? They must be making statements thinking everyone is reading their remarks when nothing appears on our screens. Much like my make-believe Ignore button I have at home!!!!
Member Since: July 17, 2009 Posts: 57 Comments: 19550
1697. Patrap 3:01 AM GMT on November 30, 2009    
We would go off channel and say Nasty things to the Soviets in their Language,the Hi-flyers,Bears..Flying in the Artic Circle.

But it was usually ignored,.kinda like certain bloggers here..

LOL
Member Since: July 3, 2005 Posts: 372 Comments: 111607
1698. cchsweatherman 3:02 AM GMT on November 30, 2009    
Good evening folks! Very glad to know that the 2009 Atlantic Hurricane Season will close in about 25 hours without any bad lasting impact. This turned out to be a much needed respite for everyone in the Atlantic basin even though the Florida Panhandle did see two storms this season. Lets just hope we see a repeat of this season next season, even though I admittedly do like tracking storms.

According to the latest computer models, its starting to look more and more likely that there could be a pretty significant storm developing and swamping the Southeast US with heavy rains come the end of this week. Not only that, but the GFS seems to indicate that there could be an assembly line of cold fronts digging into the region as well over the coming couple weeks. Going to be very interesting to watch the development of such a system since it looks like a very complex setup portrayed by the computer models right now.
Member Since: April 14, 2007 Posts: 8 Comments: 4926
1699. caneswatch 3:02 AM GMT on November 30, 2009    
Quoting Grothar:


I wonder how many of these people are on ignore and don't know it? They must be making statements thinking everyone is reading their remarks when nothing appears on our screens. Much like my make-believe Ignore button I have at home!!!!


Grothar!!!!
Member Since: October 8, 2008 Posts: 14 Comments: 4473
1701. AwakeInMaryland 3:02 AM GMT on November 30, 2009    
Quoting Grothar:


I wonder how many of these people are on ignore and don't know it? They must be making statements thinking everyone is reading their remarks when nothing appears on our screens. Much like my make-believe Ignore button I have at home!!!!

ROFL. My husband has a selective-hearing device in his cave. (night again, 3rd time's for real.)
Member Since: August 19, 2008 Posts: 32 Comments: 1918

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About JeffMasters
Jeff co-founded the Weather Underground in 1995 while working on his Ph.D. He flew with the NOAA Hurricane Hunters from 1986-1990.

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